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120800-a-request-that-players-stop-asking-other-players-to-leave-the-game
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- 5-star analogy right there | |} ---- ---- i love analogies. what if the customer walks in and asks for a cheese pizza, but the store is out of cheese pizza. you are a pizzeria and you do sell pizza but youre just out of their kind. what do you do then? | |} ---- "Drop 4", our new cheese pizza - coming soon to stores near you! | |} ---- What about the people who do enjoy this game? By sitting on the forums and demanding changes all day you're basically telling us to play your game or GTFO. Sorry, buddy, I don't want the preschool game you are so desperately fighting for. I'd rather see this game remain a unique and challenging MMO with a low population than "Generic MMO #627" that everyone tries... for a week. No, with the vast majority of changes you've suggested, I think you'd be better off playing "Hello Kitty Island Adventure." LMAO! The perfect analogy. | |} ---- Then that's a different situation. The analogy is spot on. I've not told anyone to leave, but I have suggested that "this may not be the game for you". I think that's a reasonable (and not unkind) thing to say to someone who really is looking for a different kind of game than what this is. I'm talking about really extreme stuff, though, like saying you don't like the combat mechanics. | |} ---- As a former worker in a pizzeria(akin to a carbine employee), we'd recommend other options(other available content) for the customer to try if we did not have their desired and give a polite apology for any inconvenience the absence of their desired item was not available. We would make our own cheeses so once in awhile we'd run out if it was still in process of being made or we ran out and didn't get a chance to prepare any for the next day. | |} ---- ---- Thanks very much, that's quite educational. The next time I'm inviting someone to leave the game, I'll keep your advice about doing my part to self-moderate in mind. I have a better analogy for you. Let's say Wildstar is a pizzeria. A customer walks in and says "You know what I'd like on my pizza? Pepperoni. It's actually the single most popular style of pizza there is, and strangely, you only have it on your kids' menu. I think you should have it available for the larger sizes of pizza, too!" Then a table full of other customers starts shouting "We like sausage pizza! No pepperoni!" The customer who wants pepperoni pizza tries to explain that really, he isn't trying to remove sausage pizza from the menu, he'd just like to also have the option to have pepperoni pizza. It doesn't matter. The other customers ask him why he hates all pizza. They wonder if he's ever tried any pizza. They ask him to regurgitate a chunk of sausage to prove that he has eaten pizza. They suggest he go find a deli if he loves pepperoni so much. They tell him, incorrectly, that the pizza place advertised that there would only be sausage pizza. They tell him, more correctly, that if people could have pepperoni pizza then sausage pizza wouldn't be nearly as popular at this restaurant as it is. The customer turns to the pizza store owner and says "Wow, really? Is this the kind of business you're looking to attract?" And the owner replies "You could do your part to improve the tone around here too, y'know." That's the pizzeria version of Wildstar. I love analogies. Edit: Added the bit about how those sausage-pizza lovers are adamant that if people could eat pepperoni pizza, there wouldn't be as many people eating sausage pizza. I like the way it makes the analogy even closer to the way this game does business. Edit2: Should I add that the pizzeria doesn't have very many customers, which is quite surprising given how good the dough, pizza sauce, and cheeses are? Or would that be getting a little TOO accurate? I suppose I'll just mention it here. | |} ---- ---- Meanwhile the customer knew coming into the pizzeria that they was asking for something not being advertised, like pizza on anything but the kids menu. I'm not saying you're wrong, simply that the customer (you) is/are asking for something not currently on the menu and need to be prepared for the possibility that you might meet resistance and might not receive it. | |} ---- ---- Now that this thread has become about food, a turn of events I'm very much in favor of, I feel I have to mention Father's Office in Santa Monica, Ca. Its a ridiculously good burger place that won't change their burgers. I get an office burger and a beer every time I go there and they wouldn't change the burger even if I asked them too. Its perfect... so I don't care. ;) | |} ---- Nifty's analogy better fit the issue. People that are told to find another game to fit their playstyle are asking for changes to the core gameplay of W*. They are asking the pizzeria to change their restaurant to be something that's not a pizzeria, not asking for additions to the menu that already fall under what a pizzeria will serve. | |} ---- ---- So how does that apply if the person coming into the sausage pizza restaurant was very vocal about their negative opinion of sausage before going in and asking for pepperoni, and then while inside and having a polite discussion with the sausage loving customers, tells them that everything about sausage is stupid and pointless? Would not the logical and most helpful advice be to recommend a different location that offers excellent pepperoni on their pizza? After all, you decided you didn't like sausage and went to a location that has only ever offered sausage. I think well adjusted people might ask for pepperoni to be offered in addition if that can work into the business model, but asking to replace sausage with pepperoni on your opinions alone is poor form. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- That is the strangest thing I have ever heard. If someone is not happy with the game what other advice can I give? There have been plenty of games I have not been happy with. You know what I did? Played something else.I play games to have fun. If I am not having fun in one game, I'll go to a game I do have fun in. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- If you seriously think that my posts are only about 1) how the game should be changed to meet my needs and 2) making the game easier, I don't think you're reading my posts very well. In fact, I think you're doing a great job of validating my version of the pizzeria analogy earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure you'll find more than one post where I point out that I am <0.001% of the playerbase and doing things just because I want them done would be silly. I would be advocating for content aimed at the 60-70% of the customerbase that prefers solo to group content whether I personally was in that group or not, because it's most of the people who keep games like this in business. I advocate for attunement to be more focused and less tedious than it is not because I think it will address the issues _I_ have with raiding--which are mainly focused on the "social aspects of raiding" that these forums display so effectively--but because I have personally watched people get to attunement and then leave this game because they're out of content they're willing to do. Not because it's too hard. Because they don't enjoy grinding to just to prove they can slog through tedium. It offends them, and I while my own tolerance for grinding is higher than theirs, I can understand why it offends them. I was also one of the people who advocated keeping the 40-man version of DS around for people who like 40-man content whether the 20-man version rolled out or not. I know I will never set foot in it, but some people like it so much that they describe it as the reason they bought this game. It's already in the game. It would cost nothing to keep it. Removing their ability to do something that they like that would literally cost nothing to retain is just... senseless. Try to keep that in mind if you don't hit 9/9 in the next few weeks when Drop 4 is supposed to come out. Because make no mistake--if you still haven't downed Avatus a few weeks from now, I will be one of the players pushing for this game to roll out Drop 4 in a timely fashion whether you guys hit 9/9 or not. Not because of anything to do with my needs. Because the gaming interests of 40 players are not more important than the gaming interests of hundreds of thousands of players. | |} ---- ---- I'm not going to crawl through someone's post history right now, but Yasfan doesn't sound unreasonable to me. This post looks exactly like the kind of critical opinion that is healthy for a game, whether I agree with it or not. I redact my own analogy. This does not at all look like he is requesting a toaster. | |} ---- ---- And as you've been playing MMOs for a long time now, I'm sure you know just as well as I do that I am not infringing on your constitutional rights in any way when I ask whether or not the "respectful and constructive" part of Carbine's rules of conduct for these forums includes "You have an opinion I don't like. Leave the game". Apparently it does. Now I know. I'm surprised to hear that it's Wildstar's official position, but then again I have been surprised by their official positions a few times now. As for your request, I believe that I will respectfully decline. I think there's all kinds of ways people can disagree with each other that don't include trying to lower this game's population. This game already has a pretty serious population problem, and I don't think it's very helpful to the continued survival of the game to keep trying to convince people to leave it. Thank you. I appreciate your open-mindedness. Funny you should mention design philosophies that brought people here. Personally, I started paying attention to Wildstar seriously when I read this article about their ideas for endgame design philosophy. And I was further encouraged by this Devspeak where they said that "we've tried to take every aspect of the game experience and make it customizable. We've built our core features around this idea." That suggested they understood that one-size-fits-all is not a viable approach for a AAA MMORPG. I liked that design philosophy. And I still do. I'm not sure what design philosophy you're talking about, since I never once saw anywhere a promotion for the game that said "if you love raids, this game will ensure you'll have lots of company by making sure all endgame points towards raiding." | |} ---- ---- ---- It's being removed because there -is- a cost to keeping it. From what I understand, there are still significant bugs and tuning issues that need to be addressed because they couldn't convince their QA resources to test it. Yes, their premiere content (this also includes warplots) was just thrown over the wall in an embarrassing state. IIRC in the conversion to 20 at least two bosses needed significant rework. They just don't have the staff to maintain both versions and it would be silly to add staff for the miniscule population that would opt to run the 40. 40 was a grand experiment. They made a poor assumption that transitioning two 20-man teams to a 40-man format wasn't going to be a big deal. Maybe it would have worked better if GA was also a 40. I sincerely doubt it but then I'm not at all a fan of the 40 format because of the logistical complexity it requires. | |} ---- Hrm, fair point. Never having set foot in DS, I wouldn't know how much work it still needs to actually be viable and playable for people who want 40-man content. And to be clear, I'm not advocating some kind of massive development effort to make DS40 sparkle, nor am I suggesting a different itemization tier for DS40 compared to DS20... But there are people who came here for 40-man content, and it seems a shame to have quite a lot of it already and just remove it when they're already doing it and enjoying it. Given that at least a few raid groups are 8/9, it sounds like it is at least possible to advance to the end-boss, right? So if there's any further work to be done, it would be making sure that the end-boss is possible to beat and then leave it as a "If you're that insane, go for it" thing. Because some people really ARE that insane, and fiercely proud of it (as well they should be!). When it's taken out, they'll have that entire style of play removed from the game. That just seems unnecessary and kind of sad to me. :( Edit: I think it's pretty clear that 40-man content simply isn't commercially viable for further investment, and I'm not advocating that. I guess the way I'm imagining DS40 would be as like the way hardware developers stop providing support for "legacy" items. They're still out there, and if you need drivers or specs for them you can usually find them on the developer's website even though they're no longer updating them or supporting further development on them. They make that clear on their site what's current and what's obsolete so that the community is clear on that content not being subject to more updates or further support. But they don't recall those items or attempt to actually remove them from people who are using them and happy with them. | |} ---- Olivar, It's funny that almost any time anywhere when someone is asked to be polite, they start screaming about free speech. Let's get this straight, you and I do not have free speech here. While it may seem like you can say what you want, you cannot. Plus, I think the request to all of us was not to be a douche. If your idea of free speech requires that you behave in that way, then continue on with the free speech argument. Based on what i have seen of your posts in the past, I don't think it does. | |} ---- Yea but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequence. Chew on that for a bit. | |} ---- We do have free speech here. You just cannot insult anyone or things like that. So okay, our free speech is limited in specific areas, but overal we can write a lot of things here. Some of the rules like "no politics" are in place to prevent drama and flamewars, since they have no place on these boards. But the original reason for this post, namely that he was told to play the game or leave does fall under free speach. Think one of the moderators even confirmed this. I agree, it's not really a nice thing to do or say, and perhaps not even the attitude we need right now for WildStar, but that does not take away it falls under free speach. That's the thing exactly yasfan. when looking at the complete post where this topic originated from, the remarks can be placed under respectful and constructive. The way your posts came across to the people who made this remarks, they implied that you have a problem with almost any part of the game. They made numerous suggestions and solutions, and let's be honest here, you shot them all down, or tried to counter all of them. At this point they are right. If you do not like the game, and you cannot compromise on the solutions listed, then indeed it might be better to move on to a different game. That was the intent behind that remark. I do agree with you that it could have been phrased differently perhaps, but the point remains: Freedom of Speach means he can post/say whatever he wants. Even if this might appear offensive to someone. Because that's the beauty of it. You don't have to listen to it if you don't want to. Hope it makes my view a bit more clear? I do agree that many things can be changed, and I infact support some of the ideas you mentioned, just not all of them. | |} ---- Thank you for your constructive and respectful contributions to this thread. IF I did not like the game, I would in fact be gone from it already and playing a different game. As it turns out, though, I do like the game. So no, at this point they are not right. And neither are you, if you think they are. In fact, you are even more wrong than they are. Because you are presuming that I started this thread over what they said to me. I didn't. I think you will find, if you compare the time when this thread started to the posts in the thread you're referring to, that the last post in it prior to my OP in this thread was this one here. Note that it contains a quote, made by someone other than myself, and a response in which the person who was quoted was respectfully and constructively invited to find another game to play. That was what inspired the current thread. While it is true that I have similarly been respectfully and constructively invited to leave the game many times, it doesn't bother me all that much when it's leveled at me. I fully expect that people will be more combative over the internet than they would be in person. I'm well aware that some people get what they want not because they have good reasons but because they can snarl really well. I understand perfectly that some people have a stronger interest in what happens in a video game than the idle enjoyment of their free time. And--most importantly--I know that I'm not leaving this game because some random guy on the internet thinks I might be better suited for Hello Kitty Adventures. His unsolicited opinion of what games I should play tells me a lot more about him than it does about what games I should play. But when it's leveled at other people, it bothers me a lot more because I don't know their situation. I go from being the target to being a bystander, watching someone else be a target. And what I saw as a bystander offended me in a way that I was not offended when it was being leveled at me. So with all due respect, Other Random Guy On The Internet, you don't know me as well as you think you do. | |} ---- Hey, Hey, don't be dissing Hello Kitty Online. That's a really fun MMO to be playing now. And you're right, I don't know you; nor do I presumme to know you. The biggest problem that we're dealing with yasfan is interpretation on text form, which is the worst possible form of communication, especially if you're dealing with non-native speakers. So much nuance is lost in writing out something, even if it's well written with good examples. | |} ---- :lol: I like Hello Kitty. Especially the tarot cards. Probably not a MMORPG setting I'd choose, however. The Lopp are cute enough for me! And you're right, nuance is very hard to pull off in text. I know that sometimes I come off as more brusque than I intended, where I read what I wrote and wince and say to myself "well, you could have been more tactful THERE.". For the times when I do that, I'm sorry. But that also doesn't mean I can't recognize a clear and intentional insult when I see one. Really, I've been in a lot of MMO forums. While this is not the worst one I've ever been in, it is firmly in second place. And as for the winner, that particular award goes to a game so dead that this game's population looks outright crowded in comparison. If there are people here who want to see this game plunge off that cliff, all I can say is "be careful what you wish for, you may get it." | |} ---- Holy crap I've never seen someone so blindly in love with themselves. Some people get what they want, not because they snarl so well, but because they picked what they wanted. You, on the other hand, have suggested changing nearly every core mechanic in the game, implying that you have very little interest in its current state. You're far from guilt-free in this ridiculous statement; any time you're met with anh opposition at all you attack personally. Now you're crying because you get the same treatment you've been dishing out? You're insane. Keep enjoying your own stench; you're the only one who does. | |} ---- You must not have visited many other MMO message boards then. Because it's a pretty common comment everywhere. There's also a valid point to it, sometimes. For example, I was playing the MMO/FPS Defiance for a bit, fun game but had issues IMO. But I bring it up as an example. If someone came to the Defiance boards and asks for the FPS part of the game to be removed, then yes "sorry you should go somewhere else" is a completely reasonable response. Because the person is asking for a burger at a pizza place. But sometimes, it's used when all the person in question is asking for is different ingredients on the pizza. | |} ---- ---- Thank you for your respectful and constructive contribution to the thread. | |} ---- *snort* I'm sorry, did you call out someone about attacking others with ad hominem attacks while using an ad hominem attack yourself? And worse, you even justify it with the most childish of justifications: 'hey, you did it first!' Does that mean that if you attack me with strawmen arguments then I'm suddenly right to use strawmen against yours? Or if you bring a ciruclar argument then I can use circular arguments to refute you? Or use any given fallacy to counter any given fallacy of the same type? Don't you think that's incredibly stupid? Also, if by 'stench' you mean 'posts', I'm sorry. I like Yasfan's posts. So now the last part of your statement is false and even more evidently an ad hominem attack, if there was ever any doubt of what that was, I mean. | |} ---- Yup, I do think it's incredibly stupid, but sometimes you need to fight fire with fire to get through to someone. Reason and logic don't work with him, he just tries to discredit anyone who disagrees with him and then tries to play the victim whenever someone calls him out. Stupid is exactly what it is, but that seems to be the only language that's understood here. | |} ---- Pssst. Reason and logic not only do work with me, they are the core requirements of my profession. So if what you believe to be unassailable reason and logic aren't working with me, one possible alternative explanation is that you are simply incorrect when you believe yourself to be applying those things. | |} ---- ----